I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)

[robert]

Is this guy from another planet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HVyoT2PgM

[diaper head]

it's an old tactic. say something ridiculous in order to make a point, and troll people's emotions to harvest some easy momentum.  imnsho, (ymmv, of course) he's both wrong AND right.

[pictoratus]

While he sounds a bit extreme, his premise is basically correct. If someone is given a right to use the labor of others with Government force utilized to ensure that conscription of labor, it ceases to be a free choice and can be viewed as a type of enslavement.

While using the term slavery brings up visions of men in chains forced to do the bidding of their owners, obviously we aren't going to see doctors in chains, however, in some forms of socialized medicine their labor, knowledge, and production does become a commodity owned by someone else, in this case the Government, to be used at that Government's demand, price, and prerogative with little, if any, regard in these areas given to the actual producer of the service.

The part that should worry most people is how simple it is for the Government to 'own' someone's labor, property, or knowledge. All they have have to do is call it a 'right'.

[robert]

Bizarre thinking, I must admit.

Doctors getting paid by the government when they treat people instead of getting paid directly by the patients - now I didn't know that's how slavery works? FAIL!

By that way of thinking:

Firefighters and policemen are slaves because we have a right to make sure our lives and property are protected.
Lawyers are slaves because I have a right to a lawyer if I'm charged.

Perhaps we should have private armies? Emergency vehicles should only drive to the place of an accident if the family pre-pays via credit card?

Rand Paul is a complete fool. How did he get elected?

I have friends in both Sweden and Canada who are well paid doctors, getting paid by the government. I can assure you, I haven't seen them in any chains or being tortured by the big Boss... no, they are upper class people with big pay checks and nice cars.

This whole idea is ridiculous. If you agree with this guy, please think it through a couple of times.

[pygmalion]

Well said, Robert, but from another planet? Highly unlikely. Rand Paul epitomizes the reason the aliens haven’t landed. Who’d want to hang out with someone as primitive, crude, greedy, grasping, controlling, and violent as humans? This idiot is a prime example of the attitudes that have held back the advancement of human society and stymied enlightened reasoning throughout the ages.

[robert]

I wonder how people like Rand Paul and the like can dupe some many people?

It makes me sad.

[diaper head]

robert, i think that's the clearest i've ever seen you be, on a subject that wasn't music.   

i mostly agree with you in that the idea that a doctor is a slave is completely ridiculous.
i took it to mean more in a metaphorical sense.  or maybe potentially.  if something is considered a right, by the government, they can force those who are able to provide that right to do so.
on their terms, non negotiable.   i can understand how that might worry or scare  someone who feels like they are mostly on top of the world. 
i somehow feel that the real truth of it is much more mundane.
 some folks (like maybe this rand paul guy) like to make an issue where there doesn't have to be one, because they like the attention.

[pictoratus]

I have to say I'm not comfortable with the personal attacks that are now taking taking place on this forum.

While I think it is ok to disagree with someone's point of view, I don't see where calling them a fool, idiot , or Machiavellian controller of the feeble minded unable to form a valid opinion of their own  in lieu of a counterpoint or an intellectual civil argument furthers the discourse or maintains civility on what has been up to now a place absent of personal attacks.

That being said, it is not my forum but if that is the direction to be taken on these boards, I wish everyone the best but choose not to participate in that type of activity.

[robert]

I have to say I'm not comfortable with the personal attacks that are now taking taking place on this forum.

While I think it is ok to disagree with someone's point of view, I don't see where calling them a fool, idiot , or Machiavellian controller of the feeble minded unable to form a valid opinion of their own  in lieu of a counterpoint or an intellectual civil argument furthers the discourse or maintains civility on what has been up to now a place absent of personal attacks.

That being said, it is not my forum but if that is the direction to be taken on these boards, I wish everyone the best but choose not to participate in that type of activity.

Perhaps I got carried away. I certainly don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here but I can understand if I did. Hearing a senator talk that way was for me both shocking and tragic. Politicians seem to use any kind of method that supports their agenda, no matter how inappropriate it may be.

My comments were aimed at rand Paul, not any member on this forum. Pictoratus, I am sorry it came across that way.

[creekster52]

I've got those apolitical blues...again!

http://grooveshark.com/s/A+Apolitical+Blues/200PcY?src=5

[pictoratus]

I have to say I'm not comfortable with the personal attacks that are now taking taking place on this forum.

While I think it is ok to disagree with someone's point of view, I don't see where calling them a fool, idiot , or Machiavellian controller of the feeble minded unable to form a valid opinion of their own  in lieu of a counterpoint or an intellectual civil argument furthers the discourse or maintains civility on what has been up to now a place absent of personal attacks.

That being said, it is not my forum but if that is the direction to be taken on these boards, I wish everyone the best but choose not to participate in that type of activity.

Perhaps I got carried away. I certainly don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here but I can understand if I did. Hearing a senator talk that way was for me both shocking and tragic. Politicians seem to use any kind of method that supports their agenda, no matter how inappropriate it may be.

My comments were aimed at rand Paul, not any member on this forum. Pictoratus, I am sorry it came across that way.

I didn't take it personally, Robert and appreciate your comment.

I would like to clarify if I may.

There is an increasing tendency in the public arena for some people to comment in a derogatory manner towards persons they feel are somehow excluded from normal guidelines of decency and decorum often over no more than oppositional beliefs. The reason often given for this exclusion from the graciousness we are all taught to treat others with as we are growing up  ... at least that used to be the case ... is that these excluded people 'deserve' it or that they are somehow beneath 'us' due to their words or position/occupation. Attacking or belittling someone's ideas is a very different thing than impinging a person's character simply because you don't agree with their beliefs.

I don't feel the latter is right.

To me it is no different than the old saw about the man who was robbed while in the wrong part of town with money hanging out of his pockets or the woman who was raped because she was seen as promiscuous. I realize there are some who say this man and woman deserved what they got. While I believe the man and woman in my example may have acted foolishly, I don't believe they should be excluded from common courtesy or decency or treated as such.

Neither do I believe a politician or any other person should be treated in this fashion for nothing more than a difference of opinion.

Lest I be misunderstood, I am not comparing any of the aforementioned acts as equal in nature or egregiousness. It is the trend I am describing whereby this lack of decency is becoming more and more commonplace with many participants in these types of attacks and, in my mind equally as destructive to civility, those that say nothing about what was once seen as lack of decency thereby contributing to a rapidly eroding level of decorum.

I think Edmund Burke said it best ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’

Apologies for the lengthy post and the diatribe.

[diaper head]

i disagree.  a politician is a public figure.  they know that going in the door.  because the idea is, they work for john Q public.  well, me actually being john q public, (along with anyone else who pays taxes and works for a living) totally has the right to express dis satisfaction with the services we pay for.   i also don't think there is anything wrong with "callin it like ya see it"  in fact maybe more people should do that,  instead of worrying about someone's sensitivities. that's honesty, and honesty is something to respect in a person.  for me, if i think someone is an idiot, i'll say so,  because i'd say it to their face if it came up.

i refrained from saying it earlier, but what i meant when i said:

robert, i think that's the clearest i've ever seen you be, on a subject that wasn't music. 

was that i thought that seein as how it's his forum,  i thought it refreshingly honest to put a strong opinion out there despite the backlash he might receive from those who would disagree.

[hillbilly-joe]

 

Well, I watched the video. Like Robert, I live in a country where everyone must "join" a health care program. What I mean by that is this:
There are 2 programs at the same cost for everyone. One is run by the government and one is private.  The outcome is this: the government keeps the private insurance company from over charging its patients high fees. It is nothing more that that, and  premiums are based upon what your income is for the government insurance (national health insurance). The private sector I don't know, but there is a legal max which the private companies can charge for yearly insurance WHICH IS THE SAME FOR NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE. It's currently about $6500 a year, that is the max one has to pay, whether self employee making millions or corporate employed making millions, the price is the same.  If you simply can't afford insurance the government offers some kind of grace, not sure how it works, but for example, if one has mental problems and can't work and has joined the program, his/her cost are 0, free people, absolutely free. Mandatory health insurance is not perfect and there are loop-holes in it, which many people abuse, like not paying into it until they are sick, but they find out there is a backup period of maybe 6 months of no coverage and they (here) must pay 2 or 3 years premium based upon their income tax filing before they get insured. Sounds fair enough. And if they die because they had no insurance and cheated the system that is just tough luck. Yes, it is mean, but life can be cruel. This type of insurance helps soften the that type of cruelity.

I like national health insurance because it is base on your income.  Low income = low premiums   High income= the max which is reasonable

[pictoratus]

i disagree.  a politician is a public figure.  they know that going in the door.  because the idea is, they work for john Q public.  well, me actually being john q public, (along with anyone else who pays taxes and works for a living) totally has the right to express dis satisfaction with the services we pay for.   i also don't think there is anything wrong with "callin it like ya see it"  in fact maybe more people should do that,  instead of worrying about someone's sensitivities. that's honesty, and honesty is something to respect in a person.  for me, if i think someone is an idiot, i'll say so,  because i'd say it to their face if it came up.

i refrained from saying it earlier, but what i meant when i said:

robert, i think that's the clearest i've ever seen you be, on a subject that wasn't music. 

was that i thought that seein as how it's his forum,  i thought it refreshingly honest to put a strong opinion out there despite the backlash he might receive from those who would disagree.

I think you make some good points, diaper head and I agree up to a point. We do have a right to express dissatisfaction for the services we pay for or the performance of an employee. Where we disagree is having the right to call someone an idiot just because they happen to work for you.

I've had employees under my direction many times but never felt I had a right to attack their character just because they had a difference of opinion with me or performed poorly in their job. I always treated them with respect even if I was forced to fire them because of their inability to perform as expected for the function they were hired to do.

And while Sen. Rand Paul isn't my Senator, he does work for his constituents and they do have a right to express dissatisfaction with his performance either by telling him directly of their displeasure with his actions or performance or 'firing' him by electing a new representative.

I don't feel personal attacks belong in either scenario. Nor do I feel they contribute to any meaningful solution.

To attempt to tie this in with what this forum is all about, namely guitar, suppose you hired Robert to give you lessons. Since he would be working for you would that give you the right to call him an idiot if he suggested you fret a G chord in a particular fashion and you felt it should be fretted in a different fashion? We are talking about a difference of opinion here, not anything that is being forced upon anyone. Civility demands, or should in my opinion, a respectful explanation of differing points of view with the objective of coming to an understanding, if not common ground. If common ground cannot be found, an agreement to disagree respectfully should be the desired recourse.

I think it is Voltaire that is attributed with the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". That seems to be a far cry from where we as a society are headed.

[diaper head]

i have had as many as 24 people under my direction in the past.  some of them actually were idiots.
i didn't/wouldn't have called them that under most circumstances. the difference with a politician is, unlike sheetmetal workers, they  control the lives of many people.