Hey! Sell me that big Marshall!!!

[reb]

I think most of us know this intuitively...but, the math is interesting, too.  I thought this article might save someone from 'lotsa wattage is better' syndrome....

http://guitarsquid.com/Squid_Picks/August2011/amp-wattage.html

[DetroitBlues]

Last weekend was the annual Parson's Street Plimgrimage at the orginal Gibson guitar factory in Kalamazoo.  Afterwards, everyone traveled to a local owners family estate and begin a two day guitar jam fest.  Some brought 100w Soldano heads with matching 4x12 cabs, one guy had a Dumble ODS on a 2x12.  But there were quite a few 1x12 combo's that were 40w or less.  I used my 1x12 KPB810 Reverb Deluxe (1965 Fender Deluxe Reverb clone).  Its only 22 watts, however at volume 5, I sounded just a loud as the big boys.  Biggest reason?  I had my amp on a stand that tilted slightly upwards so the sound projecting was pointing at the group, not the floor.  Playing clean or playing dirty, it didn't matter, I could be heard just fine.

[robert]

So am I reading it correctly that a 300 watt amp would be twice the volume of a 30 watt amp?

[reb]

well, the db scale is like the richter...it's logarithmic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_scale

so, rather than go find the log of .1 (30 divided by 300), i will say if you look at the chart of db differences...right in the same range as a quiet amp volume, i see 'telephone dial tone' and 10db above it is truck traffic. then again, a log scale gets steeper further up...the Who were famous for having had the loudest concert 'ever' at one time...140 db. measured 'where' i know not.

[diaper head]

and here lies an interesting/frustrating thing, imo.

i think most manufacturers are beginning to realize that a large part of their sales aren't working musicians, but us hobby guys. we're starting to see some halfway decent low wattage tube amps.
what we're not seeing yet is the goodies routinely included in the bigger offerings. features like, 2 foot switchable channels, tank reverb, effects loop,  more EQ control, and most of all, the ability to deliver nice cleans, AND nice drive, at apt friendly volumes. it's done with the bigger amps all the time. i suspect  they can do small ones like that too if they wanted.

[DetroitBlues]

and here lies an interesting/frustrating thing, imo.

i think most manufacturers are beginning to realize that a large part of their sales aren't working musicians, but us hobby guys. we're starting to see some halfway decent low wattage tube amps.
what we're not seeing yet is the goodies routinely included in the bigger offerings. features like, 2 foot switchable channels, tank reverb, effects loop,  more EQ control, and most of all, the ability to deliver nice cleans, AND nice drive, at apt friendly volumes. it's done with the bigger amps all the time. i suspect  they can do small ones like that too if they wanted.

It really been about no frills, basic appointment tube amps in small combos or heads.

[diaper head]

exactly, but i'm hoping that will change.

[reb]

it may be small comfort, but the guitar magazines are beginning to sing the 'low watt' tune, saying things like 'if it won't carry the house, it can be mic'd', which is true if you play where they have a pa system.

i have recently (i think this was premier guitar) read of a band using the axe fx and powered pa speakers...or running the axe through the house pa. eventually, as with the famous tech 21 sans amp, i think we're going to see more electronic color into the pa, and maybe no amps at all. just like going direct into the computer. it's a mind game to get guitarists to accept 'small boxes of electronics' instead of a much beloved amp...but i just watched part of a program on the death of the boom box due to the ear buds/mp3 player...i have been playing the 22 Caliber a good bit...if i listen hard, i can hear a little difference, but not more than i would if i put the champ, the VHT and the 22 side by side and did 'a/b/c' comparison with my eyes closed.

they cannot have my fender champ. i don't care. hey! you there! git way from my champ!!!

[zagatron1]

I can dig it Reb! Which makes me wonder anyway. Now I guess it is a short coming in my hearing, 'cause I really can't hear all these "differences" that some folk claim to hear. No doubt there are some, but not as pronounced at least from my perspective... I guess it's all on the individual that experiences the event. Now.... I gotta go get me a Champ!

[pictoratus]

Seems like I read that Clapton recorded Layla with a Fender Champ. There was an article where the engineer who had never worked with Clapton before this was expecting a huge wall of amps/cabs and was surprised when Clapton walks in with this little Fender Champ.

[DetroitBlues]

The original Fender champs are a lot louder than the little one you see at Guitar Center...

[reb]

i have heard/read rumors of both clapton and paige having used champs and other small amps in recording sessions. i do know-since i saw it, and presume it was 'on'-that a lineup of small amps was behind jeff beck in the video for the les paul tribute.

premier guitar put the 'nos' champ as one of their 'gear of 2010' items. i have avoided playing the grand (literally) thing; i don't want to hear if it sounds better than my $130 'returned to musician's friend' wonder. i guess i don't care....

i was yakking with a radio shack manager acquaintance who plays guitar...i told him about my experiences with the 22 Caliber...and he said he dint think that those in the audience at a live gig could 1. tell a difference in a good digital vs. an average tube amp; 2. could not tell a difference if the guitarist was 'in sync' volume wise with the rest of the band and 3. did not care what amp the guitarist was using.  gear chasing is, perhaps, its own reward?  the journey is the reward (to quote steve jobs)? there is no reward?  except on the posters at the post office for my apprehension.  time for a tranquilizer to get rid of the apprehension, i suppose

really, this leads me back to what those who are wise often say 'somewhere in print'....ya gotta find your own sound. you have to find your own rig. if you listen too much to others, and don't weed out the bs from those who actually know anything, and/or care to help you...you wind up chasing your tail.  it really doesn't matter what gear you use, if you like it...it sounds good to you..and it fits in the mix. which leads me to that article on cigar box guitars and the north mississippi allstars.

in psalms, i think the preacher says something like 'marketing...all is marketing. all will turn to dust and fried transistors...nowhere under the sun is a guide to real tone.' *dodges lightning bolt*

[DetroitBlues]

I have a friend who is a gigging musician.  With his own band, he uses an Orange Rocket Verb with a 2x12 cab.  With another band, he uses an Ipad with Amplitude on it through a PA.  He gave up his Line 6 Pod X3 Live and said the Ipad with Amplitude sounded better!  Now his band a new age rock type band that has to be loud, but the other band he gigs with more often is more of cover tunes in a more laid back and not in your face environment.

[reb]

somewhere, bumbling around, i read the term 'billy in a box'...and i went 'what?'....and this is what it means, as Frankie Starr explains with his fingers...

http://www.drzamps.com/amp/monza/

it says '20 watts'. it must be the attenuator that gives the howl...

[diaper head]

even my old cube 30 will howl like that...if you crank it wide open and play a semi-hollow body right in front of it.   most of that sustain is feedback. notice he didn't do that same trick with the SG?
it woulda worked but it wouldn't have been as dramatic.  however, that little amp has really nice note definition.  i don't know anything about that attenuator, except that with it on, it's supposed to sound like a cranked amp at low volumes.  but they never really do, any of them, because the real quality of that sound comes from the speaker being in it's "sweet spot" more than the amp itself.
you could do the same thing by using a nice distortion pedal and keeping the amp's volume down.