Want to learn jazz?

Have you seen my latest Blues Course - Slow 60 Blues?

Author Topic: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)  (Read 20178 times)

reb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 976
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2011, 09:07:50 AM »
i correspond from time to time with some canadians and uk folks. at first, they tell me how wonderful their health care system is...later, they admit, there are some things they either cannot get done, or some things they have to wait an inordinate amount of time to get done.

u.s. healthcare is not wonderful....it is not cheap. a couple of times, the docs have tried to kill me, and come close once or twice. the point of health care...what is it, anyway? that is what needs to be focused on. how it is 'run' is immaterial to the result; how it is paid for is very material. the fact that someone cannot pay for the dubious quality of care they can get here doesn't seem to me to be that great of a matter. they have a 50/50 chance they will be harmed rather than helped.

as far as firefighters, police, military...they are, for all intents and purposes, slaves to the system. they cannot strike; they can only become disabled or quit their jobs...in the military, they cannot do that, even. another area of slavery is debt...although, apparently, the slaves in that area are revolting (see if you can find 'attorney pine' and mortgage in a search involving california).

the stuff going on in washington d.c. is very real, in one sense. everyone 'believes' that 'money' is 'the paper'.  it is also governance...the debt crisis has made slaves of us all in the u.s. there are limited resources. our extension of our purchasing beyond those limited resources has real consequences on a global scale, and perhaps we are about to see some of those consequences. if taxes take more of our limited incomes because of this, how will we opt out? isn't that 'slavery' in a sense? if the world sees 'the dollar' as being 'less reliable' (or the dollar loses its place as 'the world currency standard') because we do not deal with the debt crisis, then we are going to see what world opinion does to our economy. if oil costs $200 per barrel when the dollar is no longer the currency standard, are we enslaved to the oil producers? in a global world, to some extent, we are tied to public opinion...and that is not freedom...perhaps it is not 'slavery' either...but it has consequences.

the posturing, the blathering going on in d.c. is useless theater. their use of words does not entertain me....their use of power does, though, disgust me. they do not perform for the public good in many cases, and that is the point imo.

diaper head

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 531
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2011, 08:19:35 PM »
as an american with some serious health issues  currently living in canada, health care is something i have some experience with.   in 2003, (in the states)  i had a serious medical emergency. i spent a couple months in the hospital, and had a visiting nurse for the next 4 or 5 months after that.  i was out of work that whole time. my medical bills were almost half a million dollars.  my insurance through work paid  ALL  of it, except for about $1800.  at the time i was a non-union sheetmetal worker.  just a construction worker. no wall street stuff.  nice insurance, eh?

FF to 2007. living in toronto,  not yet even a landed immigrant. i get run off the road on my bike. crash, break my ankle and my leg.  the ambulance took me to a hospital that refused to even take me off of the gurney until my wife produced 2 years worth of post dated checks.  then they set my leg wrong, and had to do surgery to "fix" it. their fix was 10 screws and a plate.  i walk like igor.

FF again, to the present.  i am now a landed immigrant.  last october i went to my doctor, and asked him if there was anything that could be done for my leg. the pain is constant and getting pretty heavy.  he refferred me to a specialist, that i had to wait until a month ago to see. he looked at my x-rays and decided he wasn't enough of a specialist for my problem, so he reffered me to another guy, who i get to see next tuesday.  9 months ago i complained of pain in my leg.
you can imagine how well things are working out still having had no treatment.  i mention it only to illustrate what i feel is an important aspect of socialized medicine that people in america need to be aware of.   i watched what they did to my wife (at the time she was still my fiance)  while she had cancer. they removed most of one breast from the inside. then 2 hours after surgery they put her in a wheelchair and brought her out to me to take home along with a handful of scrips. i asked the nurse what would have happened if she had no one to take her home and look after her and her kids?  she said they would have called a cab for her..
so,  there is my experience with both types of health care.  take from that what you will. 
it's all true.

robert

  • Guitar Guy
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2011, 11:01:28 PM »
Quote
I think Edmund Burke said it best ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’

That's how I felt when I started the thread. Paul said that physicians have been made the equivalent of slaves by those who believe basic healthcare is a human right.

Think about what he said. Slaves. He dares to compare one of the most privileged group of people in the USA (doctors) to slaves.

So I bring up the quote again -
Quote
I think Edmund Burke said it best ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’

As for myself, I should not have called him a fool, because I realize now he is actually quite smart. He is playing on people's emotions. I called him a fool because I thought that's the truth, when I posted the thread. How else can someone say something so foolish? It wasn't just his personal opinion, he said it as a statement of facts, and he is an elected official so I felt this guy is indeed very foolish or perhaps evil.

Could slaves free themselves by changing profession?

pictoratus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2011, 04:58:26 PM »
Maybe I missed something in what Rand Paul said but after going back and listening to the video again, I don't hear him comparing doctors to slaves. I can't find where he has compared doctors to any person or persons.

He did make the argument that forcibly conscripting another person's labor, in this case a doctor,  is a type of slavery. Whether you agree with his assessment or not, isn't forcibly conscripting another person's labor a valid definition of slavery?

There are many differing points of view on the conscription of labor by force by individuals or Governments. One view holds that any type of involuntary servitude whereby a person, persons or a Government profits or uses the labor of an individual by force is a type of slavery. Another view holds that in certain cases, conscription of labor by force is legitimate and shouldn't be considered slavery.

While at the present time there aren't any cases I'm aware of where the US Government is conscripting labor by force, it has done so in the past. Most recently, the draft was used to fill the military ranks. One gets the sense that the Government prefers not to force participation in the armed services relying on voluntary service as is now the case. And the most notorious example of the US conscripting labor by force is the period when those of African ancestry were used as slave labor. In both cases, the argument was put forth that this forced conscription of labor served the common welfare (ironically the same argument used to justify mandatory Health Insurance).

Earlier I said "If someone is given a right to use the labor of others with Government force utilized to ensure that conscription of labor, it ceases to be a free choice and can be viewed as a type of enslavement. " I think that is true. I don't think the economic circumstances change this one way or another. For instance, if the African slaves had nice carts and buggies and lived in mansions, would that have meant that they weren't slaves because they were privileged?

The question in this case based on what Rand Paul actually said becomes, is this type of forced conscription of labor justified in much the same way as the draft is seen by those who agree with it? Or is it a case of, as some believe; Rand Paul included, forced conscription of labor is slavery no matter what the good intentions or whatever common welfare claims can be made. It's worth noting that while it was eventually overturned, the enslavement of those of African ancestry was once upheld by the US Supreme Court in the Dred Scot case. Although that was a case based mainly on jurisdiction, the earlier court cases concerning slavery held that slave labor did serve the common welfare.

As far as where I'm at on this? It's a difficult question to answer because I don't believe it is as black and white as some think. One difference is that doctors can leave their 'enslavement' by not being doctors. But that gets into the area of considering whether they have a real choice; alluding to the economic slavery reb wrote of earlier. Another related difference is that young people can choose not to be doctors, thereby avoiding entering into a type of conscription where the US Government makes the choices regarding the fruits of their labor. How much you get paid in other words or who you can treat, etc. And that brings up a whole new question. Are either of these good alternatives?

Either way it seems the end user, the patients, suffer in the long run. How does that serve the common welfare? Just as a personal aside, I've already seen and felt the 'benefits' of the portions of the new health care law that have already gone into effect. I carry a health insurance policy on my son. After the new laws went into effect, the insurance company raised the premiums by 150%. When I called my agent to get quotes on less expensive policys, I was told that his policy had been grandfathered and that no new policys for children were available outside of group policys due to the changes in the law. In effect, I am locked in and at the mercy of the Insurance company for whatever they want to charge. It's either that or no insurance or go to a group policy many times more expensive. So much for cheaper Health Insurance.

I think the difficulty arises because what were up to a certain point free capitalists controlling their own lives and businesses according to free market principles must now have their labor conscripted by and under force of the US Government.

An equally valid question would be, why not make it voluntary? If this solution is as valid and legitimate as is claimed, why not let it stand on it's merits? Without a forced conscription, there would be no claims or arguments one way or the other whether it constitutes slavery.

hillbilly-joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 711
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2011, 06:59:34 PM »
Either way it seems the end user, the patients, suffer in the long run. How does that serve the common welfare? Just as a personal aside, I've already seen and felt the 'benefits' of the portions of the new health care law that have already gone into effect. I carry a health insurance policy on my son. After the new laws went into effect, the insurance company raised the premiums by 150%. When I called my agent to get quotes on less expensive policys, I was told that his policy had been grandfathered and that no new policys for children were available outside of group policys due to the changes in the law. In effect, I am locked in and at the mercy of the Insurance company for whatever they want to charge. It's either that or no insurance or go to a group policy many times more expensive. So much for cheaper Health Insurance.



Did you read my post about National Health Insurance here, it's based upon your income with a cap of about $6500 and NO ONE can be refused from applying for it.  There are 3 of us on the public plan and because of our income we have to pay the upper amount, but the wife and I's meds bill alone run into (gosh I don't know how much) per year.  America has many doctors and many hospitals, I don't think NHI would be a problem.

reb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 976
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2011, 02:08:35 PM »
i'm going to bring up another point of national health insurance...and it gripes me no end...

if all the politicians were subject to the same rules as 'everyone else', what would the 'new health care bill' be like? would it read the same? would the costs be the same?

enforced participation in any large scheme...no matter who 'enforces it'....is wrong and not in the spirit of the Constitution. there are some necessary evils...drafting a military, supporting the Constitution, dealing with traitors...but...i don't see health care or a host of other things as justifying forced participation. that's what dictators and rulers do to their subjects. if Robert were to say, 'you must place rock n roll here, and it must be in the key of Eminor', we are not slaves. we can go elsewhere. the government tells us...'you must participate in this health care plan. you will put your money into it (taxes, if nothing else), or we will fine you.'. that's slavery in a small sense. there is no other country i am aware of where anyone has been more free than this one. iow, there is nowhere to go to escape this effrontery to freedom.

as everyone can easily guess, i am a libertarian. i don't agree with much of the 'forcing' that goes on. where is the place for people who are tired of being forced? no where....there is no such shangri la in this world any longer. as musicians, i would imagine we would be heartily mad if we were told 'no more blues. no more rock n roll' for whatever reason. why must i or anyone abide by someones rules when i do not agree with them, but we are not endangering someone's life? good question....the Constitution answers that by what it leaves out of its language. i think that other countries should deal with matters as they please; in the u.s., we are no longer the place we were in 1950..or even 1980.

robert

  • Guitar Guy
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2011, 05:57:35 PM »
I guess I don't understand what is wrong with paying higher taxes so more people can have access to health care. If an increase in taxes can make society better for everyone, I support that, and I don't feel forced at all. I can see many people in the USA feel different about it. Those who are against it, what would you do if you weren't able to pay for your own health insurance? Not everyone in your country can have a well paid job, clearly. There are many people with low paying jobs, or with no job. What should they do?

Regardless of the opinion on taxes, I still feel the comparison to slavery is false and inappropriate. Politicians who use such comparisons are irresponsible. Slaves were told what to do or else they got beaten up, put in arrest, or  even shot.

pictoratus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2011, 09:38:51 PM »
I'm not sure how it is in Canada, Robert, but in the US, it's illegal to refuse health care to anyone who needs it. They already have access to free health care, they just don't get free health insurance.

There was a story recently about a man who committed a crime so he could go to prison and get free health care. All he had to do was go into a clinic to be treated rather than committing a crime. Naturally, a person couldn't get elective surgery like that, but for needed health treatment, it is freely available.

I find it interesting how the terms health care and health insurance have become interchangeable as if they were the same but they are not. I think by using the term health care instead of health insurance, it blurs the issue and conveniently forgets the fact that we already have free health care in the US although not everyone chooses to use it.

If the objective is to give everyone free health care, why the need for insurance? Wouldn't it be simpler to force all the health care providers to work for the National Health Service at a wage and the end user, the patient, never pay anything when they go to the doctor or hospital?

On your last point, you do realize that in the US if you break a law, you do stand a chance of getting beaten up by the police (if you pi$$ them off), put under arrest, or even shot by them if you try to flee. Just saying ...

robert

  • Guitar Guy
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2011, 12:31:02 AM »
I'm not sure how it is in Canada, Robert, but in the US, it's illegal to refuse health care to anyone who needs it. They already have access to free health care, they just don't get free health insurance.

There was a story recently about a man who committed a crime so he could go to prison and get free health care. All he had to do was go into a clinic to be treated rather than committing a crime. Naturally, a person couldn't get elective surgery like that, but for needed health treatment, it is freely available.

I find it interesting how the terms health care and health insurance have become interchangeable as if they were the same but they are not. I think by using the term health care instead of health insurance, it blurs the issue and conveniently forgets the fact that we already have free health care in the US although not everyone chooses to use it.

If the objective is to give everyone free health care, why the need for insurance? Wouldn't it be simpler to force all the health care providers to work for the National Health Service at a wage and the end user, the patient, never pay anything when they go to the doctor or hospital?

On your last point, you do realize that in the US if you break a law, you do stand a chance of getting beaten up by the police (if you pi$$ them off), put under arrest, or even shot by them if you try to flee. Just saying ...

How does it work in the US if someone needs immediate health care but has no health insurance? You get treatment but also a huge bill you must pay? What if you have no money?

I doubt Americans think they should become criminals in order to get free health care? Sounds a bit far fetched.

Pictoratus, there is no such thing as "free"... in countries with "free" health care, taxes are higher. The prisoners you talk about - their health care is paid by with taxes too I imagine.

---
In 2007, nearly 50 million Americans did not have health insurance, while another 25 million were underinsured. (Source: Commonwealth Fund Biennial Health Insurance Survey 2007)
The amount people pay for health insurance increased 30 percent from 2001 to 2005, while income for the same period of time only increased 3 percent. (Source: Robert Wood Johnson Foundation)
The total annual premium for a typical family health insurance plan offered by employers was $12,680 in 2008. (Source: Kaiser/HRET Survey of Employer-Sponsored Health Benefits, 2008)
Healthcare expenditures in the United States exceed $2 trillion a year. (SOURCE: Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, Office of the Actuary, National Health Statistics Group;) In comparison, the federal budget is $3 trillion a year.
---

Beaten up by the police if you piss them off? Sounds like too much of the kind of 'forcing' Reb was talking about being tired of.

diaper head

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 531
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2011, 07:25:19 AM »
when i was in my 20's there was a period when i was working 2 minimum wage jobs, and had no health insurance.  my 2 yr old son got sick and spent 3 days in the hospital.  he was admitted and treatment began while the hospital and i sorted out the money issues.  he ended up being treated through the public health clinic.  same hospital and staff as everyone else there,  but paid for through taxes.  we were pretty poor, so we qualified.  even if we didn't qualify, they still would have treated him and billed us.  frankly, at that time, i woulda definitely chose to let my credit take the hit. it was already crap. either way, the boy got his treatment, and the doctor got paid.

robert

  • Guitar Guy
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2011, 09:41:39 AM »
when i was in my 20's there was a period when i was working 2 minimum wage jobs, and had no health insurance.  my 2 yr old son got sick and spent 3 days in the hospital.  he was admitted and treatment began while the hospital and i sorted out the money issues.  he ended up being treated through the public health clinic.  same hospital and staff as everyone else there,  but paid for through taxes.  we were pretty poor, so we qualified.  even if we didn't qualify, they still would have treated him and billed us.  frankly, at that time, i woulda definitely chose to let my credit take the hit. it was already crap. either way, the boy got his treatment, and the doctor got paid.

That is great to hear. I am not very familiar with your health care system, and I thought you always had to pay big sums if you didn't have health insurance.

Our health care system is outlined here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

diaper head

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 531
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2011, 05:39:44 PM »
now i live and work in canada. (toronto, actually)
i have a "health card" and and make use of the system here as necc. i also have bennies from the union, to supplement the canadian healthcare.  i am pretty familiar with both systems. there are pros and cons to each, imo.  one thing i do like is,  the kids have access to the doc anytime they need to.  teenagers are active and social, and that means they pick up alot of germs, as well as the increased likely hood of injury from activities like sports and such.
it's better than when i was a kid.  my dad used to say "put yer shoes on! i ain't payin fer you ta git sick! it's too expensive!"

pictoratus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2011, 09:00:49 PM »
Robert, yeah we both know there is no free health care. I used the term because that is how it is phrased by the proponents of  Health Care Reform. By calling it free, they hope for more support from the public because everyone likes 'free'. I've already seen too many interviews on the news and articles with people on the street talking about how Obama is going to get them their 'free' care not to think otherwise. It's obvious that they not only don't think about the cost or who will pay for it but also don't care who pays for it as long as someone else does and they don't have to even if they can afford it or not..


"How does it work in the US if someone needs immediate health care but has no health insurance?" Simple. They walk into a clinic and get treated regardless of their ability to pay. It's illegal for the clinics to refuse treatment. The way they absorb the cost I imagine is by charging $10.00 for an aspirin. I'm sure you've heard those stories. They are true. I've seen actual itemized bills that went to my insurance company for payment. You wouldn't believe the amount they charge for things. And the insurance company pays it believe it or not.

I don't have the solution but I do believe the further the end user gets away from actually paying for things himself, the more waste, fraud, overhead, bureaucracy, cost absorption, and just plain theft have an opportunity to get ingrained in the process to drive prices up for health care.

Even if, even if, the Health Insurance Reform law was a good plan, and I believe it is a bad piece of legislation, the US Government is the last entity I would want in charge of it. They have done a horrid job with the Post Office which has been operating in the red for a number of years and only stays in business due to anti-competition laws passed to keep companies that actually make a profit and control costs like Fed Ex and UPS from competing with them. Knowing if they didn't FedEx and UPS would put them out of business in a heartbeat. Every industry. with the exception of the military, the US Government runs either operates in the red or has such poor service, no one in their right mind would use them unless there was no alternatives. It's ironic that the thing the Government actually does a decent job of (armed forces) is one of the few things they are supposed to be responsible for, but that's a complete different subject in itself.

As to health insurance, why not do away with it entirely if the objective is to give everyone health care paid for by the Government with revenue collected from the ever dwindling number of taxpayers? Health professionals work for and get paid by the Government at wages decided by the Government. Health Insurance not needed or even in the equation. Can you imaging going to a Government doctor who has the same amount of care and dedication to the job, and pay, as a Post Office employee?

Beaten up by Police? I agree, it shouldn't happen but unfortunately that and worse still happens to some lawbreakers. Why do you think we call Waco, Tx Wacko, Tx ( former home of the now deceased Branch Davidians and David Koresh).


reb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 976
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2011, 11:56:21 AM »
i can only give my perspective, Robert.

my ancestors came here probably as criminals on one side, and immigrants from europe on the other. they did not like 'rulers'. the kings would ride through a village in the middle ages, and simply take what they wanted. that is theft, but kings had the power to enforce their theft.

now, if you do not pay your taxes in the u.s., they will take your possessions and lock you up as long as they feel like it. that is theft...theft of your liberty, theft of your freedom of choice. the government has the power to enforce their theft. i worked for the federal government....the waste is unbelievable. the corruption is unbelievable....what they are doing and have done with my tax money has nothing to do with helping poor people. i got into a massive fight with some of my management because they were favoring large businesses over small business; in fact, they placed requirements on small businesses that could not be met because of the cash flow these businesses had.

i don't have a bit of problem with poor people receiving health care. i don't want the government involved in it because of the inefficiency and stupidity they bring with them. the health care system itself is somewhat inefficient and harmful. for example, look at vioxx. approved by the food and drug administration, later found to have serious side effects. the health care system is still pushing 'pain drugs'....with the support of the government. why should i pay for this kind of insanity? everytime the government forces something down the taxpayer's throat, the result has been the same in my lifetime...waste, misapplication of resources and the people that would supposedly benefit, frequently do not. please don't tell me i have a choice to not pay taxes....i have a choice to jump off a high cliff, also, but it would be not only impractical....

as well, there is a limit to resources, as one can see on the news with the debt limit 'crisis'. there is no crisis...we've spent too much, and we're going to pay for it now, one way or the other. saying we are going to spend more to give health care to the poor is ridiculous. we don't have 'more'. maybe canada is in better shape. having done a lot of accounting work for a number of years, i would say that the numbers showing on a page do not reflect reality. nor do the things talked about by politicians as 'examples of why we must do 'this'' whatever this is....

if a poor person needs medical care, they can go to the hospital now and get it. they don't get a bill if they have no money as far as i know. then again, i'm not convinced that they get 'really good health care' either. shoving more money into that health care system is not going to change the quality of care...here, several times, doctors have been found to harm people; sometimes they lose their license...then they go to another state, and get a license, and practice again. these are extreme examples, but you cannot find a 'rating system' on doctors here to tell you are they good, mediocre or lousy. they will kill you if you are not very careful.

why should the government force me to pay for a system that is full of problems? why do i want to pay to have pills pushed in a poor person's throat that may make them sicker? theft...bullying by those in power. that's what enforced health care insurance is. if a poor person needs help, frequently they can go to a church or other social organization and receive it....sometimes that doesn't happen, sometimes it does. and that's exactly the same thing that will happen with enforced national health care insurance...we don't solve our problems, we simply add to them with more bureaucracy. maybe canada doesn't have the issues we have...i don't know. the problems are far deeper and more philosophical in nature than we are going to solve here, i assure you.

robert

  • Guitar Guy
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
    • View Profile
Re: I can't believe this guy said this (health care and slavery)
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2011, 04:08:50 PM »
Canada and Sweden, the only countries I have lived in, both have universal health care and sure there are issues with abuse of the system and wasted money. However, there are good benefits from it too, and for the most part they outweigh the drawbacks. Doctors are still paid big salaries, and they are dedicated and motivated just like in private clinics. There are always exceptions I guess - a few rotten eggs can be found anywhere.

So in the the end, it sounds like we're all screwed... :) Lousy economy, health care, etc.

Let's just play guitar and hope they don't turn off the electricity! Well, if they do, we can still play acoustic.

Good time to play da blues, guys! :D